Hidden Metrics: The Real Secret to Leadership Success

Episode Transcript

Kelly Callahan-Poe: What if the key to your success at work isn’t on any performance review? Most leaders are measuring everything except the one thing that actually drives them. Welcome to the Marketing Moms podcast. I’m Kelly Callahan-Poe and today’s episode is called Hidden Metrics, the real secret to leadership success with Nora Bouchard. Nora is an executive and leadership coach with more than 10,000 hours of experience helping leaders grow with clarity, integrity, and purpose.

Over three decades, she has worked with leaders from Fortune 500 companies and nonprofits, guiding them to achieve results while staying true to their values. Nora is the author of Mayday, asking for help in times of need, and the forthcoming book coming out this month, Hidden Metrics, the Coach’s Secret for Success that Really Matters. Thanks for joining me today, Nora.

M. Nora Bouchard: Thanks for having me. I am excited to be here.

Kelly: I was excited to get a little sneak peek at your book to dig into what hidden metrics are because the title can be interpreted many different ways. So talk to me about what exactly are hidden metrics and how are they different from the performance metrics that most of us are already tracking at work?

Nora: Right, so the performance metrics that we already have at work typically are created either by yourself with support from your boss or they come straight from your boss. This is what we want you to be focused on. And they tend to be very focused on what the business needs, not necessarily what you need as an individual to really feel as though the work you’re doing is meaningful, that it really matters.

So these hidden metrics tend to be goals that I work up with my clients. We do it on the QT, on the quiet. We don’t let anybody else in on them for a number of different reasons. And we work on those. And inevitably what happens is that when those get taken care of, the hidden metrics, the hidden goals, everything else falls into place too, including the performance measures set by management.

Kelly: Well, I want to dig in a little bit because initially I was interpreting hidden metrics as goals that were coming from your boss that they weren’t verbalized. What you’re saying is your hidden metrics are coming from you as a leader in an organization that you may not be verbalizing to your boss, to your supervisors. So can you give me some examples of what those hidden goals might be? I think you talked about audacious goals and soft skills and things that lead to professional and personal fulfillment.

Nora: Well, I think one of them is certainly working on the soft skills. You might get some suggestions from your boss saying, hey, you need to really work on your influence or your ability to manage conflict. But we go even deeper than that in coaching. We’re going and looking at the mindsets that you have and the paradigms that you’re living in and decide together whether or not those are really working for you. Because if they’re not, we need to take a look and create something better for you. But nobody needs to know that. So I had one client years ago as an example. He was a head of a marketing and analysis team, but he had a very kind of traditional way of looking at hierarchy in an organization. And so he did not want to speak up. He did not, even though every month he was being required to present to the leadership team, he was kind of terrified because he saw these people as so much better than him because they were higher up the ladder. And so we had to go deep. We had to really get him to shift away from that paradigm and that way of thinking so that he could approach his presentations better, so that he could see himself as a partner, not just as an underling. We didn’t need to let anybody know we were working on that. But yes, you mentioned audacious goals and those are the fun ones. Those are the big ones that are so big that even if you shared them with other people, they might just say, that’d never work or, you know, who do you think you are that you can do that? And those are some of the most fun to work on.

Kelly: Yet challenging, right? Because you have a motive for keeping them secret. Let’s talk about that for a second. So what is the motive that most people keep those secrets from their bosses?

Nora: Well, one of them is that they’re afraid to ask for help. They don’t want their boss to know that they need help. They think it makes them look incompetent or not capable of dealing with the job responsibilities that they have. So that’s one of them. Another one is that sometimes the mindsets are really so private.

You really don’t want people to know. I had one client who was completely disengaged at work. He’s not going to go tell his boss that he’s disengaged, that he’s bored. He’s not going to say that to his particular boss. He’s going to work with me on that and we’re going to find a way to re-engage him. And then again, there’s this whole idea that people are just going to shoot you down for whatever idea you come up with. So, protect your ambitious BHAGs, your big hairy audacious goals, protect them until they’re ready to be taken out into the world.

Kelly: So what I loved about the aspects of the book is you do these illustrations and equations, and I’m all for an equation. And so you have an equation for figuring out your hidden metrics. So for someone who’s listening right now, who wants to start, what does creating your own hidden metrics look like in practice? And where do you begin? I know you’ve got a workbook in your book. But tell us the equations, and then let’s dig in deep as to what are all the various aspects of that equation that are worth talking about.

Nora: Well, first we start with figuring out what’s meaningful for you, what’s really important for you. And we work that into a vision that you have for yourself and your leadership. What kind of leader do you want to be? I will tell you that I’ve been coaching leaders for the last 30 years. And I would say maybe two have really spent time thinking about what they wanted their leadership to be known for, that they’d actually been diligent about sitting back and pondering what kind of leader do I want to be? How do I want to be remembered? So most people don’t do that. And what I think is a bold move is to really sit down and think about your own leadership. What is it you want to be known for? How do you want it to work? What do you want to tell your teams that this is what’s important to me? So create that vision. And so for some, it could be a big audacious goal. For another, it could just be correcting behaviors that they’ve been getting feedback for for many years. And they’re finally gonna do it, but they don’t need to tell anybody about it. But their vision is that they’re gonna correct those behaviors. And then we spend time taking a good look at the different values you hold as an individual. What is most important to you? And these can be aspirational values. I want to be known as an inspiring leader. I’m not now, but I want to be known as an inspiring leader. Or they could be values that you grew up with, from your family that you believe in competition and you see that as really powerful and something that you want to make sure that when you’re hiring people for your squad, they have that same mindset.

The next part of the equation is taking a look at your strengths—what the strengths do, the things that you do really well, they energize you. So they keep you moving forward. So if you think about it this way, you have your vision, that’s your destination. If you take your values, those are your guideposts, keeping you on that path going towards that destination. And we all know when we deviate from our own personal values, we feel it, it’s really uncomfortable, this doesn’t sit right with me. So it keeps us on that path. And then we have the strengths that really, it’s kind of the fuel that keeps us going forward. It’s what powers us along.

Kelly: On the values, you had in the book an example of what some of the values might be. And there were pages and pages. And you asked people to come up with their top five. And I struggled to do that. So I tried to narrow it down to decision making, mentoring, having meaning, communication, personal excellence, and innovation. And that was as much as I could narrow it down to. How are you getting people to narrow these down to five? Why do we need to narrow them down? Because people have so many different values. There’s many different facets of a person at work.

Nora: Well, usually this activity and identifying your values takes time. You might want to take a first stab at it. And then you sit with the list for a while and does that really work for me? Is this something I’m gonna be building in or is this something I already have? And so we really spend time with those. We keep them out, we keep them on our desk or on a Post-it note, on your monitor, whatever it is, as a way of reminding you and over time, let’s say over a month, for six weeks, you might really start feeling like, oh no, there’s something missing. I’m seeing more of this showing up. Patience is really showing up. That is something I want to include. So it’s hard to just take one stab at it. We do have some fun. Usually I ask people to identify 10 and then bring it down to five, then bring it down to three, but…

It’s fun to do that in a workshop just very quickly, but in a coaching session, we’ll do it over a longer period of time. So it’s not so intimidating and I feel like I have to get this right this first time. No.

Kelly: Do your values change over time or based on life change or are the core ones always there?

Nora: Well, you know, I think we start off with values from our parents. We’re taught certain things are very important. And as we grow, we get into the school system, we get into social systems, and we start realizing what feels right to us, what is better for us. So we might let go of some of the ones that our parents taught us about. And the example I use is competition.

You know, if you came from a very competitive family, you might realize that maybe I don’t really like that pressure. Maybe I really just want to, you know, do the best I can without competing with anybody else. So I do think that they change over time. The book that I’ve written is not just for people moving into their first leadership position. It’s for people who’ve moved into their fifth leadership position because things will change so much that your values may, your focus on values may need to change given your new role.

Kelly: The other thing that you did that I thought was really interesting is you talk about translating your values and your vision statement into a rallying cry. And you gave an example of if your values are to be the leader that the best people want to work with, then you come up with something like an advertising line that says attract the best or something. So talk about that. That must be a fun exercise to do.

Nora: Exactly. It is a fun thing to do. I learned this way, way back. I learned that Toyota had, you know, they had your basic, huge, mission statement and vision for what they wanted. But essentially it boiled down to “beat GM” because they saw that way back when, when nobody knew who Toyota was, they saw that GM was their major competitor and that was who they were going after. So that was a shorthand that they used all the time. I love those rallying cries because we can get too wordy and then we get lost in the words and it’s not inspiring anymore. So make it punchy.

Kelly: And it’s not something you would necessarily share with anybody, but you might put it as a sticky note on your computer, right, to remind yourself. Are you living that?

Nora: Exactly, exactly, exactly.

There was one client I wrote about in the book and she had a goal that she did not want to share with her boss. And that was, she was the top sales performer in her company year after year after year. Everybody counted on her to bring in the new work all the time. And she was great with that, but she wanted more. And she actually tried talking to her boss about this. What she wanted to do was to train people, the new business developers, so that they got up to speed faster and were more successful. And so her boss said, no, uh-uh, I don’t want you doing that. He said, I know, I can’t believe it. He said, I really need you to continue doing what you’re doing. Don’t get distracted.

So we created Hidden Metrics about her developing these other people on the team. And so every three months she would switch out two more people. So for the first three months, she set aside four hours a week to just work with these new business developers. And by the end of the third month, these people were rocking it. And she was still rocking it. And it was great. And so then she took on another two for the next three months. And eventually she told her boss what she was doing. So her rally cry was, “we all succeed.” It’s not just her succeeding. For her, it’s that we all succeed.

Kelly: It reminds me of part of the book when you had someone talk about how they see their supervisors or their bosses as partners, not necessarily as supervisors. So you can tell me what to do. Of course, you’re my boss, you’re my supervisor, but I may have a way or the capability or an ability to solve a problem that you may not be aware of. So for my personal growth, I’m going to still pursue it. I’m not going to tell you right now. I’m going to solve it and then I’ll tell you. And that happens a lot.

Nora: That is the essence of hidden metrics that we know we’re compelled to do these things because it is what brings us meaning. It’s success that really matters. And what she is going to remember when she’s retired is how she trained these people up. That is what is going to stick with her. Not another year of big numbers. What is going to stick with her is the connection that she made with these new people.

Kelly: Tell me about your equation for strength.

Nora: Okay, so this equation for strength is actually from a group who created a strengths instrument that’s called Capfinity. And they’re actually out of the UK and I really love the way they define strength. Strength is something you do well, so there’s a performance aspect to it that energizes you.

And so if you think about it, then you can set up a four quadrant model for that, right? So there are things that you do well that energize you. There are things that you do well that don’t energize you. There are things that you don’t do well that don’t energize you. And we actually call those weaknesses. And then there are things you could be doing that energize you that you’re not doing. So that whole idea of it’s something you do well that just makes you feel great. And you just want to do more of it. You just want to keep going with it. And it’s easy for you to talk about, to train others about, to speak to. You come across as an expert because it is so comfortable for you. And so the more people work from their place of strengths in the workplace, the better their performances. And we know that there are studies that indicate that over and over and over again. And management consultants shouldn’t be, I can’t speak for all of them, shouldn’t be focused so much on what people are doing wrong anymore. They need to be focused on what people are doing right.

Kelly: I think it’s worth touting some of those stats. I pulled them from your book that, according to Clifton Strengths, people who operate from those strengths are six times more engaged at work.

Nora: Six times, think about that.

Kelly: 15% less likely to quit, which isn’t a lot. You’d think that would be higher. 12.5% greater productivity. These aren’t minor numbers.

Nora: No, they’re not. And that’s what we want people to be. We want them to be engaged and energized and doing their best work. You know, and it is kind of funny because people think, I’ve got these weaknesses mentioned, I need to work on these weaknesses. And actually with strengths theory, we don’t recommend that at all.

In fact, we recommend that you set those aside if you can. We recommend that you find someone to help you with those weak areas. And if you do take some training, your improvement is going to be minor because it’s just that it’s not enjoyable for you. If it were enjoyable, it’d be a whole lot easier and you’d be able to really pull those weaknesses out of that weakness quadrant.

Kelly: But they’re directionally helpful in terms of, for example, I don’t love following rules and regulations, which means I am a horrible cook because everything comes out wrong. So that’s something that I need to think about in my job. I’m more free flowing, creative, and find my own way. So you have to think about them too. But I understand what you say that you don’t necessarily have to focus on them.

Nora: Right. And so, I tell a story in the book about one of them. He wasn’t a client, but he was part of a workshop where it became really clear why he, out of everybody on his team, was not completing the required paperwork every week. And it was because it bored him silly. It was just, no, don’t make me do it. And so people would waste so much time nagging him, trying to get him to do it.

And what they realized was that they were wasting this resource and he was really this iconoclast who would break through existing processes and create something new. He had great ideas for what was possible. But here you were asking him to fill out paperwork? No. We have to find a way to help him get to report what he needs to report but he needs to be really in a position where he’s really giving from his place of strength.

Kelly: Well, on the strengths, most people, I think, have an idea of what their strengths are. You know what you’re good at, right? You know what your bosses say that you’re good at but you also talked about other ways to figure out what your strengths are in terms of the energy signals. When do you get into a state of flow versus what energizes you? What are the tools that can help people figure out what their strengths are, if they feel like they want to kind of dig in deeper on that?

Nora: Well, actually there are a number of assessments out there and they’re not all that expensive. You know, they’re about $50 a pop. So we have the Clifton Strengths Finder. That’s the big one in the U.S. We also have what was called the Realize 2, which changed its name to Strengths Profile, which is the one from Capfinity. And I think they might be going through another name change as we speak.

They are the ones who use the model that I just talked about with the performance plus energy definition of what a strength is. There’s also the Via Character Strength Assessment. It’s so good, so good. And then there’s a new one I just found out about called Pigment. And it’s primarily targeted towards Gen Z, which I find fascinating and really is, and also helps you not just identify your strengths, but what kind of work is best for you.

Kelly: Yeah, I’ve done all of these.

The one that I did 25, 30 years ago, I don’t know if you’re familiar with, is the Johnson O’Connor Research Foundation. And so I did it and it told me what my top areas of performance are and areas that I should explore. And the whole point is to figure out what you’re going to explore in your career. And I had my high schoolers take it. It’s not inexpensive. It’s like $800 to take the test. And it takes all day to take the test. And my sons, got some really great information. And ironically, they both had very similar responses to me. And one actually changed their major based on the responses that they got from that. So there’s so many of these that you can really get an aha moment regardless. So I think it’s important just as a part of kind of opening yourself up and learning more about who you are to make sure that you have that information. Of course, you can get it from 360 degree views. Some people like them. Some people don’t. And then reviews from your bosses.

Nora: There’s also, you can just ask yourself some simple questions too. When do I feel most satisfied at work? What is the best kind of day at work? What does that mean? What does that look like? Who are, or when do I feel like I’m really seen at work, where I’m really contributing?

And it doesn’t just have to be at work. It could just be in life. When do I really feel as though I’m being my best? So just spending time with those questions yourself can really point you in some really good directions. So I have to go back. So I had a younger sister when I was growing up and we shared a bedroom and, I got her to make my bed.

Kelly: Excellent. Are you the older sister?

Nora: Because I told her, you’re so good at making the bed. So she was good at it, but after a while it became very clear that she hated doing it. So we want to make sure that the things we’re good at are also the things that are really nurturing us.

Kelly: You mentioned something else in the book called the four cornerstones of meaning. Can you talk about those and how they interact with the equation?

Nora: Yes, that is a really powerful model that I found online. It’s meaningoflife.org. And yeah, so they have a great model.

So they have four different aspects. So there’s love. And you think, well, love at work, what are we talking about here? But think about the connections that you make at work. And you make lifelong friends sometimes at work. People who are gonna be in your circle forever, that’s love, that’s love. And some people find meaning at work when they really have a connection or a crew, a team that they can work and live with and enjoy where they really feel seen and heard. So there’s meaning and love at work. Yeah, definitely a good one. There’s service. Service is a great one. A lot of people are there for service. They want to do what’s best, what’s right by people, and they want to give of themselves.

Years ago, I learned that the original definition of community is this Greek word that means gift. It’s what gift are you bringing to the town, to the village? What are you contributing to the community? So service really becomes a key aspect of this. Then we have discovery and exploration. So it’s about personal growth, about seeing, looking, what I’m doing, I didn’t think I could do that. Look at that, that’s crazy, I didn’t know that, but I feel so good that I learned how to do that. I’m gonna go deeper with that. So there’s meaning there that people find. And then expression. That’s the other one. So expression, being able to express yourself, your ideas, the creativity you have, the innovations that you may come up with, being able to express yourself that way. And so that means having a voice at work and being recognized for that voice and people actually seeking out your voice, being able to be someone who really drives the conversation. So expression is a key part of that.

Kelly: Well, here’s the most difficult question, which is how do you share your hidden metrics safely with your supervisor or boss? And should you even do it?

Nora: So we know that the number one relationship that people have at work is with their boss. And the reason people leave companies is usually because of their boss, if they don’t have a good one. And so that relationship is huge.

I’ve seen great relationships between bosses and direct reports, hundreds of those over the years. And occasionally there are some that are really difficult. Maybe the boss isn’t interested in opening up and connecting, or maybe you just have a sense that there’s not some safety there. So trust becomes really important. And building trust with each other is essential.

So your boss is gonna have expectations of you. He or she is going to assume that you’re competent, that you can do what you need to do, that you’re reliable, that you’re gonna deliver when you say, that you’re gonna be, the model that I use calls it intimate, but it’s about being friendly and open and vulnerable and authentic. And that you’re doing this work on behalf of the team, not just yourself.

So those are the expectations that the leader has of you. You can have those same expectations of your leader. Is your supervisor competent? Do they know what they’re doing? Do they need help and they’re not asking for it? Are they reliable? Do they follow up when they say they’re going to? Are they open?

Now, this is where I see a lot of supervisors pull back because they worry that someday they may have to deliver some critical feedback or even lay someone off. And so some will set up some sort of force field to not get too close to their directs.

So that is where if you’re being supervised by somebody who’s not all that open, that’s something to watch and pay attention to. And then again, is your leader there for you and your team, for your peers? Are they doing things for you? Are they only focused on themselves? So those are the qualities that we look for in trust.

Kelly: Could you mention the trust equation as well?

Nora: It’s the trust equation by David Maister. It’s an old book, old book, The Trusted Business Advisor, old book. But the model is classic. It’s evergreen. And so it’s basically trustworthiness equals competence plus reliability plus intimacy, the word they use, or friendliness, authenticity. And that’s all over the denominator of orientation. Are you oriented to everybody else or to yourself?

So it’s a great one that’s out there, great model. And there’s some really good trust models out there, but that’s the one I use with a lot of my clients. So it’s a process. If you’re working with somebody new, it’s gonna be a slow process. Take your time, get to know your boss, determine what it is they need from you, what their priorities are, find out who they are as people.

Look beyond just their title. Get to know what’s important to them in their lives. Find a way to connect that way. And then also be really careful of your own boundaries because if you get a sense that your supervisor’s not interested in getting real close to you, respect that. Don’t push.

Kelly: What if you go ahead and tell your boss your hidden metrics and it doesn’t work. What do you do?

Nora: Well, you have some hard questions you have to ask yourself. If you’re working with a coach, they’re gonna ask you these questions. And that is, how important is this for you? If it is really grounded in what is meaningful, your values and your strengths, it’s probably gonna be pretty important. So the question is, do you wanna keep it to yourself then and still work on it?

And a lot of my clients, most of them say yes, they’re happy to do it. They want to walk away from their careers feeling as though they’ve done something that matters and that it’s not just about the next project that’s gonna be replaced by the next project. So there’s some hard questions there about what is really meaningful and important to you.

How do you want to live your life within the confines of this job? And it may be that at some point, the job isn’t the right place for you. And that is a really hard conversation to have, but it’s a real conversation. And even if you decide not to for whatever reason, maybe you’re supporting family members or the benefits are too good or whatever it is. We’ll find a way to make as much of your dream, your vision work and happen as we possibly can.

Kelly: I think the trust equation is in part important to think about and almost again have a sticky note on your computer to remind yourself in essence, these are the things that aren’t going to necessarily be on your review either from their perspective and how do you rank in each of these areas? But also the fact that you mentioned that your relationship with your boss is the most important relationship and the stats that you cover in the book, I think are pretty mind blowing. We’ve heard a lot of these stats. So there was a 2023 study you cited from the Chartered Management Institute that found that 50% of employees are likely to leave their job within a year. That was a big one. And I would imagine that it’s gotten worse this year. We’ll wait and see.

Nora: That’s huge. What a waste of it.

You know, I think too that the younger generations are much more willing to take that risk, certainly than millennial or Gen Z or Gen X, and certainly, much more willing to do it than boomers.

Kelly: Yeah, yeah. And then there’s the Edelman survey from 2024 that said 57% of employees don’t trust their managers.

Nora: That is a tough one.

Kelly: So it kind of goes back to, if you’re going to try to have a relationship with your supervisor, trustworthiness is a key component. If you can’t trust your boss, that may be an untenable situation.

Nora: Right, exactly. And so, you know, these are not easy conversations to and pretending they don’t exist does not help. It does not move anything forward.

Kelly: So with your client base, what are the top three, if you’re willing to generalize, key metrics that employees or leaders may be hiding from their supervisors that they want to pursue? Does it completely vary, or are there some that pop up all the time?

Nora: Well, there are some that pop up. I think the audacious goal really pops up. That usually shows up with more senior leaders because they’ve had time to get a sense of what the entire organization needs. So, it’s not usually something just small for their team. It’s bigger than that. That is one we keep quiet. I think the whole idea of asking for help. And yes my first book was all about asking for help and people struggle with it. They just do. They are very concerned about being seen as incompetent or giving up control or being separated or set aside that they are not good enough to be a part of this team. So there are some basic fears around asking for what we need. And so that shows up quite a bit. And then there is this idea that sometimes the feedback that we get from our bosses, things that they believe we should change are not either relevant, an antiquated mindset or an ism, misogynism, racism, something around those lines. An old style expectation of what leadership should be about. There was one client I used to have, she was amazing, she was the only woman on the leadership team. She was always getting a dig for being emotional whereas the rest of the leadership team were yelling and throwing things at each other and swearing right and left and yet she was the one who was told she was being so emotional.

Kelly: That’s so common.

Nora: So that was not the goal we were going to be working on. We found other goals that were about influence. How does she influence these other men in her peer group. And that was her hidden metric. Not on being less emotional. It wasn’t relevant. It wasn’t real. I know I get it all the time.

Kelly: That could be a whole nother topic.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your insights today, Nora. I’m going to provide links to your book and resources in the transcript on MarketingMoms.com. You can listen or watch the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or on MarketingMoms.com. Don’t forget to subscribe and share, and thanks so much for joining.